Family & Relationships2 mins ago
Isn't It Time That More Listened To Nigel Farage?
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Is he just being scaremongering or racist, when he predict that Islamic extremists could cross the Mediterranean and gain access to the UK?
What better way could they 'invade' Europe, and if they did wouldl we see the return of another 'Battle of Britain'?
Is he just being scaremongering or racist, when he predict that Islamic extremists could cross the Mediterranean and gain access to the UK?
What better way could they 'invade' Europe, and if they did wouldl we see the return of another 'Battle of Britain'?
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The fact that you and others do contradict it is proof (to me) that NONE of you has ever read one verse of the Koran far less knows anything about the life of the prophet.
Now that is major b-s, as you know well. I have studied comparative religion, read various texts (in Arabic) and travelled around the M-East extensively so I have a fairly good appreciation. You really need to distinguish between their major sects (read - just like Christians are structured into sects) and then make some more sensible conclusions.
A tremendous amount of this 'radicalisation' comes from the more extreme sects and very 'conservative' interpretation of the Koran and the Haddiths, not the actual text.
And to answer AOG's question, no, Farage is a bigoted nationalist who even wouldn't want to see a Spaniard, Latvian, or German on Blighty's fair shores. And when he loses South Thanet in eight days, thank goodness or Allah, he's off the face of the political map and, even more so, the bunch of idiotic loons that profess to be UKIP senior members.
Now that is major b-s, as you know well. I have studied comparative religion, read various texts (in Arabic) and travelled around the M-East extensively so I have a fairly good appreciation. You really need to distinguish between their major sects (read - just like Christians are structured into sects) and then make some more sensible conclusions.
A tremendous amount of this 'radicalisation' comes from the more extreme sects and very 'conservative' interpretation of the Koran and the Haddiths, not the actual text.
And to answer AOG's question, no, Farage is a bigoted nationalist who even wouldn't want to see a Spaniard, Latvian, or German on Blighty's fair shores. And when he loses South Thanet in eight days, thank goodness or Allah, he's off the face of the political map and, even more so, the bunch of idiotic loons that profess to be UKIP senior members.
Mikey bows out again when out of his depth and foot firmly embedded in mouth.
Usual M.O. I haven't heard that the innuits are rising with the polar bears to commit terrorist atrocities throughout Europe whereas the current world wide atrocities are committed by Muslims in the name of Islam.
For a political expert who loves number crunching with his beloved opinion polls surely any one other than this terrorist pundit can see that the Islam is the current threat on the Radar screen but mikey still worries about the Welsh Nationalists.I don't think that common sense would not suggest that the threat is currently from Muslim terrorists and that should not be dismissed as xenophobia unless mikey can drag up an opinion poll that states that is not the case.
Usual M.O. I haven't heard that the innuits are rising with the polar bears to commit terrorist atrocities throughout Europe whereas the current world wide atrocities are committed by Muslims in the name of Islam.
For a political expert who loves number crunching with his beloved opinion polls surely any one other than this terrorist pundit can see that the Islam is the current threat on the Radar screen but mikey still worries about the Welsh Nationalists.I don't think that common sense would not suggest that the threat is currently from Muslim terrorists and that should not be dismissed as xenophobia unless mikey can drag up an opinion poll that states that is not the case.
SandyRoe
//sandyRoe
The Lockerbie bomb was aimed at the Americans. If the timer on the bomb had been set some minutes earlier, or later, it wouldn't have affected us at all. //
Now I see you in your true colours .You are not just a simple nice Private Godfrey type character are you?
As long as it hadn't affected us it would of been OK in your eyes would it.
What are you a Devil Worshipper?
//sandyRoe
The Lockerbie bomb was aimed at the Americans. If the timer on the bomb had been set some minutes earlier, or later, it wouldn't have affected us at all. //
Now I see you in your true colours .You are not just a simple nice Private Godfrey type character are you?
As long as it hadn't affected us it would of been OK in your eyes would it.
What are you a Devil Worshipper?
Just to add a note of levity to this dispiriting slanging match:
A UKIP supporter urged his election candidate earlier this week to suggest diverting the vessels in the Med aiding the refugees ... to Nepal instead. And the UKIP bod duly approved.
I'm listening to Nigel I must say I even turn the sound up on the TV when he comes on because nonsense if often more entertaining than dull common sense. So while I sympathise with DTC and indeed part of me is fully in agreement about never wanting to hear him again - I will in a way be sorry if he does exit the scene and we are left with the more minor UKIP loonies continuing to ask questions such as 'what happens when renewable energy runs out' etc etc
A UKIP supporter urged his election candidate earlier this week to suggest diverting the vessels in the Med aiding the refugees ... to Nepal instead. And the UKIP bod duly approved.
I'm listening to Nigel I must say I even turn the sound up on the TV when he comes on because nonsense if often more entertaining than dull common sense. So while I sympathise with DTC and indeed part of me is fully in agreement about never wanting to hear him again - I will in a way be sorry if he does exit the scene and we are left with the more minor UKIP loonies continuing to ask questions such as 'what happens when renewable energy runs out' etc etc
Ah, I've found an expert. I don't mind being patronised, like it even. Explain to the less knowledgeable followers of the thread (I include myself in that group, DTC) what forms of Islam are:
Deobandi
Salafi/Wahabbi.
Do you (I admit I don't) know what proportion of UK mosques are influenced and financed either directly or through surrogates by the above schools of Islam?
Do you know (I admit I don't) the demographic distribution of adherents to these forms of Islam within the UK, especially its major urban conurbations?
What are the moderate schools of Islam. How far are they represented in the UK Muslim community?
The much listened to British Council of Muslims has only 500 of the 1500 UK mosques affiliated to it. Do you know what proportion of these are Deobandi/Salafi?
Most recent Muslim migrations are from the Horn of Africa. What are the predominant forms of Islam in Somalia, Sudan etc?
An aside (but an important one to me and British Jewry), as you to have travelled extensively in the Middle East, which countries are those? Have you encountered a lot anti-semitism (I hate that word for pedantic reasons, but you know what I mean)? Is it as prevalent as we are told, or is hatred of Jews (as opposed to Zionists) just black propaganda by Islamophobes?
Yours faithfully,
A Humble Seeker after Truth.
Deobandi
Salafi/Wahabbi.
Do you (I admit I don't) know what proportion of UK mosques are influenced and financed either directly or through surrogates by the above schools of Islam?
Do you know (I admit I don't) the demographic distribution of adherents to these forms of Islam within the UK, especially its major urban conurbations?
What are the moderate schools of Islam. How far are they represented in the UK Muslim community?
The much listened to British Council of Muslims has only 500 of the 1500 UK mosques affiliated to it. Do you know what proportion of these are Deobandi/Salafi?
Most recent Muslim migrations are from the Horn of Africa. What are the predominant forms of Islam in Somalia, Sudan etc?
An aside (but an important one to me and British Jewry), as you to have travelled extensively in the Middle East, which countries are those? Have you encountered a lot anti-semitism (I hate that word for pedantic reasons, but you know what I mean)? Is it as prevalent as we are told, or is hatred of Jews (as opposed to Zionists) just black propaganda by Islamophobes?
Yours faithfully,
A Humble Seeker after Truth.
I was in my twenties at the height of the Troubles. Can't remember anybody blaming Roman Catholicism for the IRA/PROVO bombings.
DTC/Ichkeria: you guys got a different memory from mine? If so how do you remember it? Or maybe you're both too young, in which case, please don't make ignorant assumptions.
DTC/Ichkeria: you guys got a different memory from mine? If so how do you remember it? Or maybe you're both too young, in which case, please don't make ignorant assumptions.
Not by your attitude Sandy.you give the impression that whoever commits the act of downing an aircraft it doesn't attest who committed it as long as it doesn't fall on us.you must take great comfort that Putin's pals downed an aircraft that fell in the Ukraine and not US.Further comfort for you.they were not Islamic terrorists.
1. Deobandi - a subset of the Hanafi sect, a revivalist movement.
2. Salafi and Wahhabis are synonymous with each other....the fundamentalist wing of Sunnites and within that the 'dangerous' side of it, unfortunately, the Saudi royals being largely considered as members, though things do get tempered by their Imams and the last King.
3. I have no idea of financing - without research....I would add that there is likely to be a difference between capital financing (capex) and ongoing opex the Wahhabis strong on the former - that is speculation though.
4. Quranism and Liberalism along with many sects within the tapestry of Islam...
Sunni, Shia, Deobandi, Bharelvi, Ahhmadiya, Wahhabi, Ismaeli, Ithna Asharia, Alawi, Druze, Bidati, Dawoodi Bhoras, Usuli, Alavi Bhoras, Naqshbandiya, Darvish, Chisti, Zaidis, Kharijites, Khatmiyya, Tijaniyya, etc, etc. tens, if not hundreds exist as Islamic sects.
Some are ultra-orthodox and some are moderate, none can be said to be progressive. If we in the West are ever going to understand Islam we need to understand that there are important differences between Islamic sects and between the different ETHNIC groups within Islam
Some folk would rather use the specific names of the various groups when discussing Islam. If we discuss Pakistan we must understand the differences between the Deobandi and the Bharelvi. If we discuss Iraq we must understand the difference between the Usuli and Alavi Bhoras in Shi'ite politics. If we want to discuss Sufism we must understand that some Sufi sects are ultra orthodox – there is a vast difference between the Naqshbandiya of the Caucasus and the Naqshbandiya in the US – the Naqshbandiya in the Caucasus are jihadis - and this causes many of the problems of misunderstanding that flow forth.
I understand that all this serves to complicate matters – and this is why people revert to simplisms such as 'moderate' Muslim. But I'm afraid it's important, especially when a supposed moderate Muslim is put forward as a spokesperson for Islam. He or she may not be a legitimate spokesperson at all, just a spokesperson for the views of the sect he or she belongs to.
Confusing, yes, but very important for the understanding of this.
4. Sudan, (North) mainly Sunni Islam of the Maliki school of jurisprudence, deeply influenced with Sufism, making Sudan one of the most tolerant Muslim majority countries in the world - Shia in Khartoum though.
Somalia, mainly Sunni based off the Ash’ariyah theologyamd Shafi’i jurisprudence, and Sufism, until recent decades when Salafism has made inroads - big regional differences though.
6. Travel to all in the ME but Iran in my case, plus the North Coast of Africa and down to Kenya, inc Sudan and Somalia.
7. I am more than old enough to remember Northern Ireland and was involved in one London incident so, politely so, on this one you can fecking well eff off.
2. Salafi and Wahhabis are synonymous with each other....the fundamentalist wing of Sunnites and within that the 'dangerous' side of it, unfortunately, the Saudi royals being largely considered as members, though things do get tempered by their Imams and the last King.
3. I have no idea of financing - without research....I would add that there is likely to be a difference between capital financing (capex) and ongoing opex the Wahhabis strong on the former - that is speculation though.
4. Quranism and Liberalism along with many sects within the tapestry of Islam...
Sunni, Shia, Deobandi, Bharelvi, Ahhmadiya, Wahhabi, Ismaeli, Ithna Asharia, Alawi, Druze, Bidati, Dawoodi Bhoras, Usuli, Alavi Bhoras, Naqshbandiya, Darvish, Chisti, Zaidis, Kharijites, Khatmiyya, Tijaniyya, etc, etc. tens, if not hundreds exist as Islamic sects.
Some are ultra-orthodox and some are moderate, none can be said to be progressive. If we in the West are ever going to understand Islam we need to understand that there are important differences between Islamic sects and between the different ETHNIC groups within Islam
Some folk would rather use the specific names of the various groups when discussing Islam. If we discuss Pakistan we must understand the differences between the Deobandi and the Bharelvi. If we discuss Iraq we must understand the difference between the Usuli and Alavi Bhoras in Shi'ite politics. If we want to discuss Sufism we must understand that some Sufi sects are ultra orthodox – there is a vast difference between the Naqshbandiya of the Caucasus and the Naqshbandiya in the US – the Naqshbandiya in the Caucasus are jihadis - and this causes many of the problems of misunderstanding that flow forth.
I understand that all this serves to complicate matters – and this is why people revert to simplisms such as 'moderate' Muslim. But I'm afraid it's important, especially when a supposed moderate Muslim is put forward as a spokesperson for Islam. He or she may not be a legitimate spokesperson at all, just a spokesperson for the views of the sect he or she belongs to.
Confusing, yes, but very important for the understanding of this.
4. Sudan, (North) mainly Sunni Islam of the Maliki school of jurisprudence, deeply influenced with Sufism, making Sudan one of the most tolerant Muslim majority countries in the world - Shia in Khartoum though.
Somalia, mainly Sunni based off the Ash’ariyah theologyamd Shafi’i jurisprudence, and Sufism, until recent decades when Salafism has made inroads - big regional differences though.
6. Travel to all in the ME but Iran in my case, plus the North Coast of Africa and down to Kenya, inc Sudan and Somalia.
7. I am more than old enough to remember Northern Ireland and was involved in one London incident so, politely so, on this one you can fecking well eff off.
DTC - thank you very much for expending your time and knowledge on your post. I will read it several times to absorb what I didn't already know. I know I'm no expert, but I spent a long, long time dealing with/reaching several areas of Islam. It wasn't my primary concern - that was how to educate pupils! Thanks again. :o)
DTC has it right here "Farage is a bigoted nationalist"
The only reason that he has come out with this nonsense today is that due to health problems, he hasn't really been firing on all cylinders and he wanted to get back into the game, knowing the media will leap to any bait he dangles.
I too think that when the Election is over he will go the same way as Kilroy-Silk, Nick Griffin and James Goldsmith...consigned to the scrap heap of British political history. Already he is yesterday's man.
The only reason that he has come out with this nonsense today is that due to health problems, he hasn't really been firing on all cylinders and he wanted to get back into the game, knowing the media will leap to any bait he dangles.
I too think that when the Election is over he will go the same way as Kilroy-Silk, Nick Griffin and James Goldsmith...consigned to the scrap heap of British political history. Already he is yesterday's man.
you were doing exactly that, jourdain......I haven't even touched on Shia differences - or with Sunnites, naomi is better qualified for that.
However, one thing, imagine being a reasonable, decently educated Muslim in Oman looking in at Christianity from the outside - that's equally as confusing and therein lies many a misunderstanding between the respective faiths. I have found the chance to discuss these differences and fallacies one of the richest seams of interest in my travels in Muslim countries....
However, one thing, imagine being a reasonable, decently educated Muslim in Oman looking in at Christianity from the outside - that's equally as confusing and therein lies many a misunderstanding between the respective faiths. I have found the chance to discuss these differences and fallacies one of the richest seams of interest in my travels in Muslim countries....
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