What D'you Think Of This ?

[1rovert]

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/brexit-over-1-000-barristers-053829124.html

[naomi24]

Ellipses, I haven't mentioned the numbers of black people killed by white police officers in the USA. For heaven's sake stop moaning.

[Garaman]

//I would be willing to bet that had the vote been reversed, the ‘Leavers’ wouldn’t have been saying what they’re saying now.//

Well that is a safe bet, Naomi, of course they wouldn't. They would be saying 'Damn we lost let's sign that petition' or words to that effect.

I agree with you btw that the whole thing has become tiresome. Do you think that you could get that across to your fellow Leavers who keep bringing the subject up?

[jim360]

Obviously I'm complaining about the result, because it didn't go the way I wanted it to. But that doesn't undermine the legitimacy of it, under the current rules. And that, in turn, doesn't imply that maybe it's time to readdress the rules of our current democracy.

[naomi24]

Garaman, as far as I can see, in the main it isn't the 'Leavers' who are bringing the subject up.

[naomi24]

jim, I repeat, had the vote gone your way you wouldn't be saying "It's not fair on those who voted Leave". Your indignation works only one way.

[Garaman]

I don't think that you can see very far then, Naomi. Let's keep a count from now on and we won't include the one started at 18:47.

[jim360]

"Your indignation works only one way."

Does it? Let me remind you of what happened last year, when Ukip (a party that I hated) got utterly shafted at the election, due to the broken rules. I'm fairly sure I was probably the most indignant person on this site about that -- and I don't even like Ukip! Hated what they stood for, always have done. But I recognised then that democracy had been far from just for their supporters.

So don't give me this "indignation only works one way" line. It's utterly false and you know it, or you can easily check for yourself. Whatever side you are on, surely you have to recognise that this vote for change doesn't have to stop solely at our relationship with the EU. That may have been what it was about on the surface -- but it has give a chance to readdress everything else about our democracy as well.

[naomi24]

Garaman, you keep count if you want to – and if I’m wrong, I’m wrong.

Jim, had the vote gone the other way can you honestly say, hand on heart, that you’d be complaining in the same way? I don’t think so.

[jim360]

I've been going on about electoral reform for one form or another for longer than the referendum result, so it's not like I only discovered the topic yesterday.

Would I have been so vocal about it otherwise? Probably not. But it's an opportunity presented to us to reconsider our democratic processes all the same. That shouldn't change just because the message is coming from someone on the losing side.

[Ellipsis]

Naomi, here for example:

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http://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/News/Question1502054-7.html#answer-10471719
Mikey, Talbot's link - the words of a black police officer. Educate yourself.

https://www.facebook.com/jay.stalien/posts/911372818974402
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You refer Mikey to an article to "educate himself" that's packed with statistics - and it's a better article for it, otherwise it would just be opinions.

The numbers I have posted are plain facts.

> For heaven's sake stop moaning.

Pot, kettle ...

[naomi24]

Jim, a 'Yes' or 'No' would be helpful.

[jim360]

I can't answer what I would have done in some hypothetical alternative history. I can only say that I wouldn't have stopped caring about the democracy of this country just because we voted to remain. What I would, or would not, have posted about it here and now, I have no idea.

[naomi24]

Ellipsis, they are not my statistics. That is a piece written by a black policeman who says that much of the problem in the US today emanates from the attitude of black people. That was the point I was making.... but I think you know that.

[naomi24]

Jim, that'll be a 'No' then.

[jim360]

Read into it what you will. But you have no idea either, really, do you?

[Ellipsis]

Jim, like yourself (at your age) I was a keen advocate of electoral reform. Much less so now. I think the electoral system we have is pretty good. The main change I'd make is to the House of Lords, not to the voting system or the House of Commons. I think a system where the Lords was populated by PR would be worth considering. The Parliament Act would need some attention if this was to be the case.

What this referendum shows isn't a problem with our normal voting system, it's a problem with referendums. What will be the next one - a return to capital punishment? That would win, too.

[naomi24]

Jim, a 'Yes' or 'No' shouldn't be difficult for you - but it is. No reading necessary.

[Ellipsis]

> Ellipsis, they are not my statistics

Yes, I do know that. But you did refer Mikey to them - or did you mean him to ignore those and just read the opinions?

You surely value hard facts over opinions, Naomi?

[jim360]

Strictly speaking, ellipsis, I was merely suggesting this time round that it's a good opportunity to ask all sorts of questions about how our democracy works. One thing I'd like to see as a first change at least would be constituencies of equal population size and far less gerrymandering (in favour of Labour at the moment, incidentally) -- although I disagree that our current system works just fine at the moment. Ironically, when I was (slightly) younger I was more in favour of FPTP than electoral reform, but there you go. I'm sure I have plenty of life left to change my mind on more than a few things.

I accept the "problem with referendums" comment, although mainly because they turn out to be terrible at settling questions. We had a referendum on electoral reform and that didn't kill the question; a referendum on Scottish independence has been similarly ineffective at burying the issue; and the one just recently probably got the Bremainers out more passionately than before, although it hardly matter this time of course.

[jim360]

"a 'Yes' or 'No' shouldn't be difficult for you..."

I'm a scientist. We don't do "yes or no" unless we absolutely have to.

But even then, why do you expect a definitive answer to a hypothetical question? It's not possible -- or people who do answer "yes or no" are lying.

Odd, really -- I thought you were the one who was keenest on the "I don't know" position previously.