Holocaust Denial?

[flobadob]

Apparently Holocaust denial is a crime? Is this only in certain countries or in all countries? Also wjy is it a crime, surely it comes under freedom of speech.

[jomifl]

I didn't realise it was that many Sandy, it must be the brain cells giving up the unequal battle with the vin du pays

[birdie1971]

Like many on this thread, I'm with the free speech brigade. I also believe that the Holocaust happened because it's a subject that I've read a great deal about (both for and against). The conclusion that the vast majority of historians (who don't have a political/ideological/religious axe to grind) is that the Holocaust was a very real event because of the sheer mountain of mutually supporting evidence from a plethora of distinct and individual sources. The idea that it didn't happen, or that the scale of the extermination was much smaller than reported, is frankly absurd.

I also find it equally absurd to criminalise thoughts and expression of those thoughts. If a person wants to believe in an absurd version of reality (or history) that requires them perform mental and semantic gymnastics, then let them - as long as their words and deeds do not encourage others to perform acts of violence.

It may be highly offensive and in seriously poor taste to espouse Holocaust denial theories in public but in a country where we seemingly value free speech, we should never legislate to protect people's own personal sensibilities.

As Lazygun pointed out earlier, “Once you start drawing red lines around topics, or issues, and proscribing by law the airing of alternative viewpoints - however wrong-headed and absurd - where do you stop?”. Quite right and well said.

[AlBags]

TBH, I always assume denial is caused by some sort of phsycological illness.
Bit like the mad theorists who think the moon landings were rigged.

[cassa333]

Aren't the countries that make holocaust denial a crime the ones that lost the most to the holocaust?

[birdie1971]

To Reefer and Keyplus -

“I think the argument people have is about the figure of 6 million not that people were gassed and killed in camps.”


Various historians have given estimates from anywhere between 5.1 and 6.3 million Jews killed. He's an example of such as estimate -

From the 'Encyclopedia of the Holocaust” (published 1990, page 1799) - Estimated loss of Jews in the Holocaust:

Total number before: 9,796,840
Minimum after: 5,596,029
Maximum after: 5,860,129


The above figures are not pulled out of thin air. They were compiled by a number of scholars each working in his or her own geographic area of speciality and then combined by Yisrael Gutman and Robert Rozett. The figures were taken from 21 countries and were derived from population demographics, taking the number of Jews registered living in every village, town and city in Europe, the number of reported transported to camps, the number liberated from camps, the number killed in 'special actions' by the Einsatzgruppen, and the number remaining alive after the war. The minimum and maximum loss figures represent the range or error variation.

[birdie1971]

Continued...

You do not have to believe the above figures, but ask yourself this question: “If 6 million Jews did not die in the Holocaust, where did they all go after the war?”. Deniers claim they are living in Siberia and Kalamazoo, but for millions of Jews to suddenly appear out of the hinterlands of Russia or America or anywhere else is so unlikely as to be nonsensical. The Holocaust survivor who does turn up is a rare find indeed.

[Ankou]

i think they should be free to say what they think and then face any consequences.

as said above i am of a mind to think that most of the deniers believe that something happened, just not to the extent claimed, and that the holocaust is some sort of jewish sympathy media machine. mostly that the camps were built and used for forced labour and re-education rather than mass murder.

my thoughts are otherwise having seen a couple of the camps (also khatyn memorial as well), and as said here there is plenty of historical evidence of operation reinhard including written, videographic, photographic and personal.

[jno]

freedom of speech is a fine thing, but there are other candidates for freedom as well, some of them conflicting - for instance, Jews might have benefited from a ban on people advocating their extinction. As an American jurist put it, freedom of speech shouldn't extend to allowing you to yell 'Fire!' in a crowded theatre.

[Ankou]

unless there is a fire of course.

[jno]

possibly even then. The ideal response, I suppose, would be to announce it calmly and direct people to the nearest exit. All this is about balancing competing rights, threats and possibilities. Will more people be killed in a fire than in a stampede?

[flobadob]

I wouldn't say it didn't happen but would have a notion that the numbers have been blown out of proportion, not saying I'm right, just think it's possible. Also it seems to be a handy way for people to plead oppression. It's very easy to be labelled anti-semitic. I've never fully understood why so many people are against Jews but I've noticed that it is very difficult to argue a point in relation to them without very quickly being vilified. Weird, as most other religions are there to be ripped apart.

[Ankou]

jno, in the event it would be likely that i would scream it out loud, just as i was exiting the building. is that sooooo bad ?

flobadob, i guess it depends on context. what point would you like to argue about the jewish faith ?

[jno]

I don't think anyone except the resident atheists has anything against the Jewish religion as such; the prejudice is against the Jewish people. Historically, Christians were banned from being moneylenders, so Jews filled the slot; but everyone hates moneylenders and if a king got himself deeply in debt to them it was easier to proclaim that they sacrificed Christian children in their rituals

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel

and expel them from the country, or kill them, than to repay them.

[daffy654]

My son met a Holocaust survivor at school a few months ago. His name is Rudy Oppenheimer. He was very moved by the story Mr. Oppenheimer had to tell.
http://i452.photobuck...us/HOLO_web_Small.jpg

[naomi24]

I don't think the Jews are disliked purely because they were moneylenders. The whole of their history and the history of other people's hatred towards them stems from their assertion that they are God's Chosen People and their claim on the so-called Promised Land. Because of that, even though they spread throughout the world, they remained united and independent from the society around them - which is why they were the moneylenders.

Daffy, nice picture. I think children should be taught about the Holocaust.

[Snafu03]

Holocaust denial is often taken well out of context. Alot of people question the figure of 6 million, it doesnt mean they dont beleive it happened at all.

[Ankou]

as jno said, the prejudice is against the people.

[missnemesis]

The Reverend Ernest Levy was indeed a holocaust survivor and although I am not a religious person I found him to be an absolute inspiration. He showed the true spirit of humanity and the world is a much sadder place without him.

http://www.timesonlin...es/article6899916.ece

[Booldawg]

To quote SandyRoe

'Only an idiot would deny The holocaust. The Jews weren't the only people to suffer, 20 million Russians died in the war.
Why treat one set of outrages as special?'

Very true and I would like to elaborate on that by metioning the Russian Revolution where under Stalin 30 million lost their lives a large proportion of which were civilians. The holocaust wasnt the largest genocide of the 20th century but is the most spoke about. Why is that?

My theory is that alot of big players in the media are Jewish and happy to keep the momentum going because it goes some way to allow 'slight discrepencies' in the middle east to carry on little intervention from the West. This has been going on long before Islam was viewed as a threat.

[jomifl]

Booldawg if you are saying that the zionists in israel are using the holocaust as a smokescreen to get away with a similar crime of genocide in palestine then I agree with you.