Gay Marriage

[ll_billym]

How pathetic are the church? They tried to pull The Bible out and now they are referring to a dictionary.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17329902

Why can't they just admit that they are scared that this will diminish their already waning power? The church does not own the word 'marriage', the taxpayer owns this word and most taxpayers rightly do not care a jot about who gets 'married', let alone whether they are the same sex or not.

The only reason I care is that to my mind it is another nail in the coffin of religion. All thoughts welcome!

[andy-hughes]

What this comes down to is 'them' and 'us'.

Society as a whole has made massive strides in the acceptancec and understanding of homosexuality in the last fifty years, but the notion of homosexuals as being outsiders in society still persists in cultural attitudes.

This is what manifests itself in the argument about marriage - the church does not want 'them' to enjoy the same status is 'us' because it still believes that to be homosexual is to varying degrees 'different' 'substandard' 'subversive', 'unatural' etc. etc.

So to sanction the concept of marriage for gay people is to be seen as agreeing to their lifestyle and practices, which powerful instituions, including the church, are not keen to relinquish.

But the march of equality and acceptence is relentless, that particular genie is out of the bottle, and like all genies, it cannot be put back. Marriage for gay couples will come to be - maybe not yet, but it will happen.

[RATTER15]

^^^ as above, it will happen, no doubt, just not sure how soon but I think soon! :))

[tamborine]

JTH a civil service is the joining in marriage. You dont go to a golf club to play football.

As for RC priests etc. I boarded in convents & went to days schools. Staff in both were no better or worse.

[mrs_overall]

Aw Nox, your answer moved me.
My late mum was raised as a Catholic. She fell pregnant with my eldest sister before she & dad were married. When they went to see the priest about arringing a wedding, he slapped mum across the face.
That was the last time she set foot in a church.

[andy-hughes]

tamborine - i believe the issue is based on the desire for gay people who are committed Christians (not such a contradicition in terms as the church would love to believe!) - to be entitlted to their marriage being recognised and sanctified in a church - and option denied them on the basis of their sexuality which is cruel discrimintation, however they attept to justify it.

As far as your experience in educational establishments staffed and / or run by Catholic clergy, you are in the majority in terms of not being abused sexually / emotionally / physically - however others have not been so lucky, and even today, the Catholic church has to have its arm twisted up its back to make some mealy-mouthed apology to suifferers, usually combined with prayers for their wayward clergy.

That, to the Catholic church's eternal shame, is far too far away from actually addressing the issue with a view to dealing it with as it requires.

[jackthehat]

Tambo - This isn't the first time you've utterly misunderstood the issues so I'll explain......again.

A Civil Service/Ceremony will result in a marriage.
A Civil Partnership Service/Ceremony results in a Civil Partnership.

No-one has mentioned anything about churches being *forced* to conduct same-sex marriages.
If a gay couple are able to marry at a Register Office in a Civil Service/Ceremony, as very many heterosexual couples do, that would satisfy the calls for equality.

[ummmm]

Well I hope they change it soon. I could do with a pretty new frock, Jack :-)

[jackthehat]

And a hat..........all must wear hats!! :o)

[sunny-dave]

Don't do hats, but a new frock .... ;)

[andy-hughes]

Nox - with regard to your appeal to the clergy to help with your ongoing abuse - it seems that the Catholic church is so bound up with its own divinity, that it is a knee-jerk reaction to defend it, no matter what the evidence.

My mother-in-law is Irish, brought up in a convent with six siblings since her mother died when she was seven. I have often opined - not to her face, i would not decry or belittle anyone's faith - that if her priest shat on the lounge carpet she would say it was good for pile!

Over Sunday lunch, we discussed Father Bede Walsh, a local priest known to all of us, who has just been handed a twenty-two year sentence for child abuse. "He always said a good Mass ..." was my M-I-L's instant reaction.

I do believe I that the infalability of priests and nuns is so indoctrinated into Catholic children that they carry it on into adulthood, which is a seriously distrurbing concept in this day and age.

[tamborine]

thanx JTH for that. All marriages in the RC church also undergo a civil ceremony before registers are signed.

[andy-hughes]

tambo - ? I was married in a Catholic church, I recall no such ceremony, but it was twenty-five years ago. is this something new?

[EDDIE51]

I am in favour of civil partnerships for same or opposite sex couples but belive 'marriage' is intended to give stable relationship for the raising of children. If a same sex couple want a church endorsement of their relationship they can ask for a 'Blessing' in church just as an opposite sex couple can.

[andy-hughes]

EDDIE51 - a nod and a wave from a church minister or priest does not equate with a marriage ceremony, and that is what the entire argument is about.

Oh, and in case you have missed it - gay couples are now seen as providing a secure and happy environment for the raising of children - turns out all that stuff about them having horns and tails and doing baby-sacrifices was not actually true after all (!).

[ummmm]

How does marriage provide stability for a child? Some married parents are pretty crap at parenthood.

[andy-hughes]

ummm - it doesn't of course, but since gay couples can only have adopted children, they are subject to rigourous tests of suitability before they are allowed to have children to love and care for.

If you are heterosexual, and wish to have children, you can go right ahead and have them, however unsuitable you may be.

A homosexual will have to be seriously determined, to climb the mountain of bureaucracy involved in making sure he or she is fit for parenthood.

[Ann]

Jack - you maybe know about this. In our Church last Sunday (not Catholic) our minister was talking about the fact that churches may soon be forced to conduct gay marriages against their principles and constitutions. He said it could raise a case like the two Christian hoteliers who refused one of the rooms in their house/hotel to a gay couple, as it was against their faith. I think they were prosecuted. Could it come to this, do you think? that a church could be forced into conducting a marriage which was against their faith? It would be very hard for the minister to give a beautiful meaningful service if he was hating every minute of it. I'm not going to enter a slanging match with anyone as I have my own views, I just wondered if you thought it could come down to this for churches - conduct gay marriages or be prosecuted. I think it would be sad for a gay couple anyway to take part in their wedding knowing people in the church didn't agree, it wouldn't be much of a happy occasion for them, would it?

[ummmm]

Andy, I know a gay lady who has a child, naturally.

[ummmm]

Re-read Jacks posts posted at 11.09.

[jackthehat]

Ann - As far as I am aware, the proposal is to change legislation/statute law *only* to enable same-sex couples to marry. Full stop.

If there are any forward-thinking 21st Century-dwelling denominations with similarly enlightened 'officiants', they will be permitted 'according to their conscience' to carry out ceremonies. But there will be no compulsion.....

I cannot see any gay couple wanting to marry 'under a cloud' in the circumstances you describe.